Excerpts from an interview with Marilynn Mair

Q:   Tell me about your instrument, what kind of sound you are looking for, the strings you use, and so on. I am struck by the fact that different professional players all seem to have differnt types of picks, wrist positions, and personal techniques. What are your thoughts on all this? 

MM:   For years now I have played a Lyon & Healy A model, 1920's, carved top & back, short scale and curved fingerboard. When anything happens to knock it out of commission I have a couple of back-ups, but they give me less of the sound I want. I've searched for a long time in vain for a matching vintage Lyon & Healy, so a year and a half ago I decided to try a different approach and commissioned Doug Woodely, the Toronto-area luthier, to build me a new instrument based on my old one. it wasn't to be a clone; I wanted Doug's "Chicago" model, but built to the measurements of my orignal, to try to duplicate it's sound and feel. 
       When I talked to Doug about the order, he told me he'd been hatching a plan of his own, to build a limited edition series based on my instrument as the "Marilynn Mair signature model". Boy, was I surprised, and honored. We decided the one I was ordering would be the prototype, not the first of the series, and that the series would be limited to 25, since our Duo will celebrate our 25th anniversary in the 2000-2001 concert season, about the time he'd probably begin construction. 
       I just got my prototype in December, and it is incredible. It's bright, responsive, and beautifully balanced. It hasn't been out of my hands yet, and I'm playing it in all my concerts. Somehow the word is out, because I understand that #1 and #2 of the series have alreay been ordered. Doug's donating part of the price of each instrument to the Hibbard Perry Memorial Scholarship Fund of AMGuSS.
 

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Ontario's "Mister Mandolin":
An Interview With Luthier Doug Woodley
by Maxwell McCullough

Q: Well, let's start off with where Guelph is! 

A: Guelph (pronounced 'Gwelf') is about an hour's drive northwest of downtown Toronto, in the Province of Ontario.

Q: You'll be our first Canadian luthier in  this series of interviews for MQ. How about some back ground on you musical background, and why you decided to concentrate on the mandolin. 

A: My father was a musician, and I started playing piano at an early age. Like a lot of kids, I guess, I was more interested in being outside playing ball. After a few years of piano my musical interests mostly consisted of listening to music, but by the time I was 17 or 18 my sister became interested in the mandolin. Since most of my friends played guitar that was about the last thing I wanted to learn, so I decided to learn to play the mandolin; at first just tinkering with it and then more seriously. 
       Later on, my brother introduced me to vintage instruments, and I became aware of what quality meant. Then in the late 1980's, I saw a mandocello down at Elderly Instruments in Michigan. 
 

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A: Yes, it's about a 4-hour drive; there's nothing else any closer with that kind of selection. I fell in love with the sound of this beautiful K-2 mandocello, so I was on a quest to find a mandocello I could afford. All of the ones I saw were out of my price range, but I had seen a picture of a K-5
 mandocello at Mandolin Brothers and I got the idea to make my own. I had an old Kay Laminated-top guitar body that needed a neck, so I built a neck as my approximation of a Gibson mandocello neck and strung it up as a 'cello.

Q: How did that come out?

A: Surprisingly well, considering it's humble beginnings. It didn't compare in sound to the better Gibsons of old, but it suited my needs and was the only mandocello I had. It's still in use, in fact. This project gave me my first experience in calculating fret positions, because I made the neck a non- standard length which wouldn't have worked with any of the pre-slotted fingerboard blanks, and I had to develop my own formula. Shortly after that, I bought an F-5 mandolin kit from Stewart-MacDonald, and that was the first mandolin I put together and it's still the one that I play. I did a lot of research on violin construction at that time, mostly at the library and whatever else I could dig up, and learned a lot in building that first instrument.
 

A: Yes; practical things such as calculating fret positions, making things fit with very close tolerances, detailed design considerations probably come more naturally to me than they would to some people. Although I learned a great deal as a machinist and applied that to many of my hobbies, I really never liked doing it. Working with hot metal and oily, greasy parts was not my idea of a good time. Once I started working in wood I found it a lot more to my liking than working metal, although such experience as mold-making has served me well and saved me some time. 

Q: As I recall, you told me that your brother has continued to find vintage instruments for you.

A: He's great at finding these things, like my Lyon and Healy Style A, Gibson A, Martin 0-18 and some others. Really, my whole collection of vintage instruments is due to him. He knows and keeps in touch with a lot of people, and follows up on the leads. He's the one who introduced me to Grant MacNeill at the Twelfth Fret in Toronto, one of Canada's really great music stores, and Grant was quite interested  first in my mandocello and then in that first F-5. In fact when he saw the F-5 he said, "Build two of them, and I'll sell one for you." He knew what the market would handle and thought it would sell. 
       Well, I did that. It took me a long time, but I took the first one over to him on a Monday. He hung it up and said he'd show it for me. Grant is also part owner of a music store in Guelph, and it happened I was in there the following Wednesday to pick up some strings and Grant was there. As I walked in, he said, "Hey, Doug guess what? We sold that mandolin." I thought he was kidding, but he really had, for $2500.00 Canadian. That was back in 1994.
       Dave Wren, one of the other part owners of the Twelfth Fret, is a really fine retired guitar builder who has built some terrific instruments, and he had gone over the instrument when I first took it in, going over every detail, pointing out every tiny defect - little things I knew about but thought no one would ever notice. He did say that he was impressed with the result, and asked, "How many instruments do you build a year?" When I told him that was only my second one, he replied, "That's disgusting!" I took that as a compliment, which it was. 
        My third mandolin was an improvement over the second, both in terms of finishing details and tone production, and by this time I was really into studying violin and guitar building techniques and applying them to the mandolins. While you never really stop learning, I got fairly quickly to where I thought I wanted to be with respect to construction details; the hard thing for me was the finishing process, which was a bit a a frustration as I imagine it is for everyone.

Q: I understand that when it's done right, this can take almost as long as building the instrument itself.

A: It certainly can when you're learning how to do it. I feel like I have a good foundation now, and I have spent a lot of time with other builders and analyzed a lot of instruments, studying how they were constructed and finished.

Q: Do you use tone bars or x-bracing on your instruments?

A: So far, on my f-hole mandolins I have used tone bars. I'd like to experiment with cross-bracing, but I've really found very few cross-braced mandolins which had the kind of tone I'm looking for. I prefer the warm tones I get from the tone bars. My oval-hole instruments have the single lateral brace. Cross bracing produces a distinct tone which the bluegrass players seem to like, but to me there's too much of a harsh, metallic midrange.

Q: What about finishes?

A: I've taken an unusual route, in that I've used polyurethane varnish so far. I started using that on the advice of a violin-builder who makes very fine instruments and uses that for the finish. My mandocello and first mandolin were both lacquer finished, but I've found that if you can get the polyurethane to go on thin enough it makes for a very satisfactory result. It remains very flexible, but it doesn't touch up very well - doesn't bond to itself as well as nitrocellulose - and it doesn't wet sand very easily. So, I'm starting now to use spirit varnish and I'm experimenting with different types of hand-rubbed finishes. Varnish has become the finish of choice among the top builders, and that's what a lot of buyers of top-quality mandolins are looking for. (note from Twelfth Fret; Woodley has since switched to a French Polish applied varnish)

Q: Do you use forms and cutting machines to copy out your carved tops and backs? 

A: Not so far - I've carved them all by hand, and this is something I've really enjoyed. Now that I have made the decision to get into this business as a living, I'm going to need to get some of that equipment for a least roughing out the tops and backs.

Q: What's your target for production? How many would you like to be able to make in a year?

A: I'd like to do twenty to twenty-four per year. Right now, I'm working on designs for other instruments, standardizing my forms and templates, learning how to do more than one at each stage of the building process. Next year I expect I'll turn out a dozen or so, then increase production as I learn how to do that without sacrificing quality. 

Q: And you've taken time out to make instruments like this beautiful copy of the Lyon and Healy Model A.

A: I did that design four years ago but never had time to work on it until recently. It took a long time, for example, to work out just how I wanted that peghead to look, once I decided not to use the standard L&H peghead. I'm pleased with the way it turned out, and I want it to be a part of my product line. There are not many Luther's making that style of mandolin right now, and my feeling is that it could be a popular offering. I'll continue to build the F-5 and A-5 styles as well, of course

Q: What do expect your distribution channels to be? Does the Twelfth Fret continue to be your main display showplace?

A: As far as display, yes. They've been after me since those first mandolins, for the last couple of years, to get them more instruments. I like to have instruments with them, because I get good exposure with the instruments there on the wall. It's a way to get a lot of advertising and feedback, and name recognition. People now come in asking about Woodley instruments pretty regularly.
     I've promised to get them a steady supply, but most of what I'm now doing is on a special-order basis to private buyers. And I've done some experimenting. I built my first oval-hole, A-style and took it to them to sell and it went pretty quickly. It's a good place to test the market.

Q: One feature I notice about your instruments is the use of wood bindings.

A: I wanted to differentiate myself from other builders, and this is one rather distinctive feature that people notice. The first A-style I built used wood bindings just to be different, and a bit more 'classy'. The price of vintage Gibson A's is still low enough that it's tough to compete with them, and differentiating your product os one way to get people's attention. 
 

"Etude" prototype (left click for larger image)

A: Actually, after a lot of experimenting I hit on  using five plies of black-dyed pearwood, though you can't tell it from a single strip of wood. I especially like the effect of the black wood binding against the blonde instrument. I'm starting to use ebony binding now, though that's a bit dicier to deal with.
      The tough thing on this Lyon and Healy style is that the binding here at the neck curves both up and in at the same time. Wood binding is pretty unforgiving compared to plastic, and you've got to be quite exact or have a sloppy glue seam. It's quite a challenge, but I feel it's worth it in the final product because it looks so elegant.

Q: You have gotten away from the truss rod in these later instruments. What are you using as a neck reinforcement - carbon graphite?

A: On the twelve fret instruments that I'm working on now, I'm using carbon graphite. I think it has great potential both in terms of stability and in keeping the weight down. For one thing, installing a truss rod is really a pain, and while they're useful in straightening  a bowed neck if that becomes necessary, if you think about it, a mandolin really has a short, stout neck which if reinforced properly to begin with should not develop that kind of problem. Some people are skeptical about that, but I'm comfortable  with at least the 12 fret necks and I'd at least like to  make it optional. I use a considerable amount of pressure in fret insertion as well, which also is a factor in neck bowing.

Q: Do you feel the source of carbon rod vs. truss rod has and effect on the tone? 

A: There's certainly a lot of debate about what affects the tone in building an instrument. My feeling is that just about everything you do has an effect on the tone one way or another, and if comes down to whether the combination of things you do sums up to a good effect or a bad one. That's a real challenge - trying to figure out what it is that people really want in a mandolin. Some are looking for warmth, some for subtlety, some for balance, and for some the only thing that matters is volume. If everybody wanted the same thing and I know what it was, mandolin-making would be a lot easier. I'm shooting for a balance between good volume and warmth in tone.

Q: How about tap-tuning. Where are you with that? 

A: When I started building I based my designs and techniques on Siminoff's book. I've never really been able to achieve the exact frequencies Roger has in the book, and I've learned that I can affect the tone the way I want to by slight shifts in tonebar placement, or tonebar shaping, so I haven't relied a lot on tap-tuning. Really, as soon as you glue a tuned top to a rim assembly, and then glue an the back, you change the dynamics. Bob Benedetto does his tuning, as I understand it, on the assembled body, which makes more sense to me. I look forward to having the time to experiment with this to see if I think it really does make a difference.
 

click on photo for larger format image of  Woodley F-4	click on photo for larger format image of  Woodley F-4

A: Yes, everything I do is of my own design. I cut the bridges by hand and custom-fit them to the instruments. The width of the foot is a bit different from the manufactured ones, and I spend a lot of time insuring that the feet have perfect contact with the top. The pickguards are ebony, and so are the fixed clamps. I'm constantly looking for a tailpiece that I like, and haven't really found one that suits me. What I did on this (the L&H style) is to use and ebony 'nut' on the bottom of the instrument and secure the strings to metal pins. Then, the cover goes over that . It works well, and it's another stylistic touch that sets my instruments apart from others. 
 About that time, the tape ran out and it was time for both of us to go to a workshop we wanted to attend. I came away from that interview feeling that here was a young man about to embark on an exciting life change, and feeling a bit envious. Doug has accumulated a lot of knowledge and experience and clearly knows what he wants to see, feel and hear in the instruments he produces, and you can see and hear that devotion on ;examining his work. On close examination of Doug's instruments, I am consistently impressed with his attention to detail, design refinements and finishing quality. These are truly works of art as well as fine-sounding instruments, and I believe this young man has a bright future indeed in the business of luthiery. 
       I spoke with Doug briefly just before filing this article to get an update on ;his progress and plans, and can report that he's right on target -  he quit his fob as a machinist almost a year ago, continuing as a part-time consultant until this June, when he went full-time into instrument building. He continues to get high marks from those who see and play his instruments - he attended this year's AMGuSS summer school and came back with three new orders (ten percent of the total attendance of 30 students!) - and has a back-log which will command his full time.
       Doug also reported that he has a mandola in the design stages, based again on the Lyon and Healy style. Marilynn Mair has one of the best of these that I have heard, and it is this one Doug has used as his example and target. He hopes to have a prototype ready for the CMSA Convention in November.
       Also in the works is a too-early-to-announce 'Limited Edition' series - but stay tuned, because if Doug is doing it, it will be worth waiting for.

Maxwell McCullough
 

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